CLEVELAND, Ohio — The Guardians completed their second big trade of the offseason over the weekend, shipping Josh Naylor to Arizona in exchange for righty Slade Cecconi and a competitive balance round B draft pick. At the same time, the club filled its need at first base by bringing back fan favorite Carlos Santana for his third stint in Cleveland.
On Monday’s podcast, Paul Hoynes and Joe Noga break down the trade and what Santana’s return could mean for rookie Kyle Manzardo. They also pay tribute to baseball legend Rickey Henderson, who passed away on Saturday.
Listen and read along with an AI-generated transcript of the podcast below.
Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Joe Noga 0:04 Welcome back to the Cleveland Baseball Talk podcast. I’m Joe Nogue, joined by Paul Hoynes Hoinze. A lot of movement, lot of action over the weekend. The big move being the trade of Josh Naylor to the Arizona Diamondbacks, the Guardians get back right-handed. Picture slides to Sony and a competitive balance round B selection that gives them 4 picks in the 1st 72 of the upcoming 2025 draft. But importantly, the entire right side of the infield has been traded away this offseason, beginning with Andres Jimenez going to Tor. And now Josh Naylor, who came to the Guardians in the Mike Clevinger deal in the 2020 season. Spends what? Five years here in Cleveland. Goes through a devastating ankle injury in 2021. Comes back, works his way back to being an All Star, has a 30 home run, hundred RBI season and then in his final year of arbitration, the guardianship him off to the Arizona Diamondbacks. What was your first reaction to the trade, the timing of the trade when it happened and and the return? This is something that we we had seen coming pretty much since the beginning of the offseason.
Paul Hoynes 1:25 Yeah. I think the return, Joe, a lot of people are upset about the return, but I think you’ve got to look at it realistically, Naylor, as you said, was in his walk year. He’s going to be a free agent at the end of the 2025 season. The Guardians were looking, you know, aid to move him and B to move his salary projected at $12 million. So to find a team that’s willing to do that and know and know and they know they only control him for one year unless you know they can. Sign him to an extension. Which I I’m not sure what’s on Josh’s mind in that regard. I just think if you’re the guardians, you’re not going to get a lot back in return. You have to be realistic and from what I had heard before the deal was went down, they were looking for a pitcher off the off the team’s Major League roster. They got that in saconi. And did I say that right, Saucony and? And you know, they they threw the competitive balance BA draft pick in there so. You know, I I really. I don’t. You know that you could expect to get a equal value in this deal with Naylor. You’re not gonna get a guy that hits thirty home runs and drives in 108 runs because those guys aren’t out there. I mean, who’s gonna trade you that for a guy that can walk after one year?
Joe Noga 2:51 Right. And you know the alternative is go into the season with Naylor on the roster. Then you have to start paying him that salary and it sort of defeats the purpose of of what you’re looking to do there. If you go into the season with Naylor on the roster, you can trade him closer to the deadline when when the demand for him is. Is higher if he’s having successful season. If he’s, you know, repeating the the start that he had to the 2024 season. Then. Attending teams are are gonna want a a a hitter of Josh Naylor’s caliber come July. But the problem is if he’s doing that for you, you’re probably contending as well and it’s another, you know, issue of do we do we upset the chemistry? Do we trade away? A guy who’s being successful for us just because we know at the end of the year he’s he’s not going to resign and and that became sort of evident throughout this whole process was that Josh Naylor was that close to be coming a free agent and. You know, going for that, that biggest dollar and that that that biggest contract which is something that he’s absolutely earned, you know he’s put his body through. You know so much in in the last five years here in Cleveland that, you know you you can’t argue with a. Guy being that close, you know, wanting to wait it out and and go for it. So do you think that the negotiation process ever even got started with Josh Naylor? Or was it something you know? Chris Antonetti on Sunday morning. It just really felt like. You know? He said. You know, we don’t want to, you know, dwell on the past. We’re looking forward. Here it sounded to me like there wasn’t really a lot coming from Josh Naylor side in terms of negotiation.
Paul Hoynes 4:43 I’m sure they both, you know, had they had to talk about the idea. If not this winter, you know, then in previous winters you know the one you know the the injury probably set that those conversations back what in 2021, but you know I would think they had to talk to him at some point during his stay in. Cleveland about an extension. But you know, as as you know, when you when you get into your 5th year. You know your 5th. You’re you’re entering your fifth year of service time. And you’re coming off a career season. You know the the horses out of the barn, then you know. So I think free agency is, is the thing you know and I don’t think whatever they you know they weren’t. You know, I don’t know if the what if there were numbers discussed, whatever. I I just don’t think it was going to get done. And the the thing that gets me Joe and we talked about it a little bit. Before off the air. You know, if you’re gonna, if you’re gonna let. You gonna bring in? I guess. I guess we’ve gotta talk about Carlos Santana. You know, they haven’t announced him yet. Officially, he’s gotta pass a physical, but if you sign Santana for the same amount of money that you were that Naylor was gonna was projected to make, you know, it’s an interesting decision. Why do you think they decided to move Naylor instead of just playing Naylor, playing the string out with Naylor and let him walk at the end of the year? I you know it’s. I guess you know what. What do you as opposed to, you know, bringing Santana in, who’s, you know, quite a bit older, 38, who’s on the down side of his career? Obviously he’s had a great career 324 home runs. This is third time. This will be his third time in in in Cleveland. Projected to be, but you know 20. You know you’re talking about 27 year old first baseman as opposed to a 38 year old first baseman who’ll play most. Next season at 39.
Joe Noga 6:49 Wait, you got it all out there, hoynnes. There there was.
Paul Hoynes 6:52 Ha ha ha ha.
Joe Noga 6:52 You know, before we could really dive into it. Yeah, the sort of the announcement that they were close. Right after the announcement of the trade with with the the Diamondbacks, the sources with the guardians sort of let us know that Carlos Santana, close to signing. I think the the physicals are the only thing, the only hurdle that they have to clear and the holidays are sort. Of making that difficult, but at some point this week. I think we’re going to to get the official announcement that Carlos Santana signed for that one year $12 million deal and and you’re right, it seems like you’re just moving the salary from, you know. 27 year old Naylor to a 38 year old Santana and and why would you do something like that? It it doesn’t matter that the the war figures, the baseball reference and fan graph reference the fan graph. War figures favor Santana from last year. Anyways, that that has to do more with his defense and his ability to get on base a little more consistently than Naylor. But yeah, you’re giving up thirty home runs, 108 Rbi’s in in Naylor and and you don’t know how much Santana has left in the tank. I think there’s a comfort level with Santana. I think you know he wants to be here and and. And the the organization is is comfortable knowing what they’re getting. In Santana and that consistency? But you’re right, it does seem like. A weird move to just move that salary from one guy who’s basically playing on a one year deal to another guy who’s basically playing on a one year deal. That and it that opens up the question of. You know, playing time for Kyle Manzardo and you know where they see their young players having a path to, to consistent playing time and consistent at bats. I think that played a major role in. You know why you move Josh Naylor out of that spot and and you open up the opportunities for for a guy like Kyle Manzardo.
Paul Hoynes 9:03 Point a good point. You gotta play manzardo. You know he’s going to be, I think Joey’s going to have a lot of playing time this year as opposed to last year. Right now, DH is open and, you know, Santana played a lot of first base last year for the Twins, won his first gold Glo. There. But you know, I think it’s not going to be, I don’t think Steven vote is going to be as restrictive this season. When it comes to opening first base up a little bit more. I mean, Naylor own that position last season and he wanted he deserved it. But I think now we could see, you know manzardo, you know, have a have some time there as well as John Kenzie, Noel.
Joe Noga 9:47 Yeah, he he did make a point to mention John, Kenzie, Noel and his athleticism and his ability to play both the outfield and at first base. We saw a video of him working out in the Dominican Academy with Juan Burrito, who’s also now in the mix at second base and then probably, you know, one of the leading candidates to play at second base. Early in the season, if he can come out in spring training and and show well just based on what he’s able to do at the plate, you know, video that could be the the new right side of your infield at some point during this season. John Kenzie, no. 1st and Burrito at second, but you know we’ve we’ve got a long way to go before we get there and and Santana is going to play a lot at first base. He he likes to play in the field. He prefers to play in the field as to to DH. But but you know he can DH and I think on on games where they face a left-handed pitcher, you know, he’ll be, you know, definitely out there. At some point, but Manzardo could get his opportunities to to play a little more defensively as well because. ‘Cause, you’ve gotta let him play there. You can’t just sit him on the bench and and DH him because you’re afraid he might drop the ball once. You gotta be able to live with that.
Paul Hoynes 11:09 Yeah. You still a young guy, you know, you’ve gotta find how to he can play first base at the Major League level because unlike, you know, so many other guardians, he’s not that versatile. I mean, I think there there was some talk about him playing the outfield at Columbus last year. I’m not sure if he did, but you know from all reports, he’s a first baseman, Joe.
Joe Noga 11:29 Yeah, and eventually you’re working yourself towards the, you know what you wanna see is a right side of the infield. That’s Kyle Manzardo at first and Travis Bazan at second base. But there, there’s still. There’s still time. There’s still you need to give bizana a couple of seasons in in the minors, couple at least one full season and you know, maybe a little more than that before he. Has any impact on the Major League roster? So we’ll we’ll see there the other. Part of this this Josh Naylor trade involved Slade Sissoni coming back to the Guardians. Now, this is an intriguing sort of pick up here. He he started what, 13 games last year also appeared in relief for the for the Diamondbacks. But the the era in the home run numbers, you kind of look at and. Kind of scary, actually. In 77 innings, he gave up sixteen home runs and he posted a 6.66 ERA with only 64 strikeouts. This has never been a guy at the Major League level who has, you know, struck out a lot of guys, but he’s also not really walked. A lot of guys. So I think the guardians think there’s something there that they can work with. You know, if you’re already got the low walk rate, that’s great. We can work with you on strikeouts. But his stuff, you know, he’s got a four pitch mix with a high 90s fastball and this is a guy who’s arm they like. And now he’s in there competing for a spot in the rotation. Possibly.
Paul Hoynes 13:13 Yeah, Joe, I think you’ll you’ll go to camp as a starter and they’ll see where they are in that rotation. And if he doesn’t make it there, he could. He’ll fit in somewhere in the bullpen, you know, just another arm to to check out. Former number one pick of the Diamondbacks in the 2020. You know, so obviously they like him. Somebody like them and we’ll have to see where it goes from here. But you know that, as you said, Joey did get knocked around a little bit. You know, in, in, in 20 games last season with the Arizona 77 innings, 92 hits, sixteen home runs. So he wasn’t missing many bats right there.
Joe Noga 13:58 Yeah, that’s the concerning part. The kind of the scary part in in that is that you know, if he’s making mistakes, he throwing hard, that ball is going to go a long way and you know you can’t have, you can’t give up sixteen home runs in 77. Innings and and expect to be sticking around on the Major League roster at that point. Looking at the rotation right now, Tanner Bibee. Been lively. Gavin Williams Ortiz. Tristan McKenzie all in that mix right there. Now you throw in Slade Sassooni, who’s going to be competing for a spot and. You know you’ve you’ve got, you know, sasoni. If he doesn’t make it as a starter, there’s one one, maybe two bullpen spots available. Right now that that he could maybe slot into as a as a swing guy. Be a long reliever as well so. A lot of possibilities that you’ve you’ve given yourself with the at the at the Major League level in terms of the acquisitions you’ve made this offseason, and that’s something that Antonetti said, that it was a goal for them, was to to, you know, increase their options at the. Major League level for the rotation and they’ve gone out and done that.
Paul Hoynes 15:20 Yeah, that’s a good point. You know, they kind of the the cupboard finally ran dry as as far as starters go, you know, being produced by the pitching factory this past season. So I think they had to go out and and add some from outside Joe with Ortiz and Chiconi, you know just they added what a couple left you know they they’ve brought in some. Two lefties from Pittsburgh prospects. You know the way down the road, but they’re trying to. You know, restock that system with some good arms and we’ll have to see just where the, you know, those guys fit in spring training.
Joe Noga 16:00 Yeah, Michael. Michael Kennedy and Josh Hartley are the lefties that they acquired from. Pittsburgh, but neither of them is pitched above a ball yet, so that’s, you know, they’ll be a little ways off also in the mix for that rotation. I’d. I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention Joey Cantillo, Logan Allen and Doug Nakasey. You might want to throw a lefty in there and and those guys are all going to be options for sure.
Paul Hoynes 16:24 Yeah.
Joe Noga 16:28 And and now you have depth at AAA. If if those guys are, you know, start the season in Columbus, you have depth, you have options there waiting. If things don’t work out with Mackenzie, with lively, and even with Ortiz. But right now that’s let’s let’s put it this way and and and you’ve got Bieber coming at some point during the season.
Paul Hoynes 16:54 Exactly.
Joe Noga 16:54 So right now the rotation looks a lot healthier than it did. Let’s say on November 1st. Then, as opposed to right now. There’s, there’s quite a bit more depth at the at the upper levels of the minor leagues and in the majors.
Paul Hoynes 17:13 Yeah, that. And then I think that was a primary concern going into the winter to, you know, just get some more bodies, some big league, you know, big league arms that can help out because, you know, we’ve seen the last couple years. You know, just, you know start. Pitchers are prone to injury and and it’s taken a toll on his team. You know they’ve they’ve had to rely really, really heavily on a bullpen, especially last season, so. The more arms the better, Joe.
Joe Noga 17:45 You pretty much need, you know, eight, eight to 10 arms at some point during the season you’re gonna go through. At least twice as many as as you need in a rotation during the season. All right, one reminder use listeners. Hey it was. It was late on a Saturday night when they decided to make these trades and we blew up the texturing with our subtext subscribers. They knew everything that we knew as soon as word got out. Out about the the deals for Naylor and the the potential signing of Santana Guardian subtext. A great way to stay connected throughout the offseason is 399 a month. To subscribe, go to cleveland.com/subtext or send a text message to 2162. 084346. Hoynes got to mention the passing of a legend. One of the the greatest pound for pound, one of the greatest baseball players of all time. The career leader in Steel’s, the career leader in runs scored, Rickey Henderson, surprising news passed away at the age of I believe, 65. He’s, you know, and the tributes are are pouring in for the guy who, you know, was was never really shy about talking about himself. And the third person, he was a a great personality, but an incredible talent, an incredible base stealer. An incredible, you know, hitter just all around. You know, one of the greats of all time in Major League Baseball.
Paul Hoynes 19:28 Yeah, no doubt about it, Joe. And 65 years old, much too young to go. And it just seemed, you know, I saw the. I saw the the when the news started breaking on on X formerly Twitter and I couldn’t believe it, Joe. I thought it was AI thought it was a fake account. I thought Ricky Henderson can’t die. I mean, he’s indestructible. This is a guy that, like you said, stole over 1400 bases. Scored over like 2000. Runs. I mean, he’s it’s impossible. But you know. No one makes it out of here alive. But I I didn’t think Ricky Henderson. He went way before his time. Joe. I remember watching him. I I was covering the ALCS between Toronto and Oakland in in 1990 and he hit 406 for 15. He scored eight runs. He stole eight bases. He had two home runs, drove in five runs. He was. And I just, I’d never saw one player take over a series like he did. And it was you. Just you just said. I mean, this guy makes it look so, so easy it it can’t be that easy. But but he did.
Joe Noga 20:48 Yeah, an All Star every year between 1982 and 1988 and then two more with Oakland in 91 and 92. MVP in 1990. I mean steel totals. What 146 stolen bases in 1985? You thought the stolen base numbers were high this year? I mean, that’s 146 is more than double what Eli Dela Cruz had this year and he let all the baseball. I mean, I’m sorry that’s run, score runs scored. My apology. You know what? Let’s go back. 130. 130 stolen bases in 1982 is more than double what LA Dela Cruz. Had as the Major League leader this year, you thought the the stolen base was was on its way back up. I mean, it’s got a ways to go compared to the the heyday with, you know, Vince Coleman, Ricky Henderson and those guys, 130 stolen bases in 1982 was, you know, just impressive.
Paul Hoynes 21:54 Yeah, I know. That was before the Rules, Joe. The the the limited pickoff throws, how many, how many bases would Rickey Henderson steal now? I mean it would be.
Joe Noga 22:05 It wouldn’t even be close. Yeah.
Paul Hoynes 22:06 It would be highway robbery. I mean, they’d have to. They’d have to stop, change the rules back, because he would just run wild.
Joe Noga 22:13 Well, and what? When he passed Lube Rock for the all time lead he he took third base with him. And like he, he immediately got up, pulled the base out of the out of the dirt and put it over his head. I mean, and this is a guy who would would talk about himself in the third person all the time. Just. It must have been really fun to be in the clubhouse and and and cover him and be around him in in those those glory days for the the A’s and for the the Yankees. As well so. Just kinda, you know, really sad that Hall of Famer, a guy who you know was a a good ambassador for the game as well, no longer with us. Just rightfully so. A lot of teams are are, you know, posting their tributes to to one of the greats in Ricky Henderson.
Paul Hoynes 23:05 Yeah, no doubt about it, Joe. Just, you know, I talked to him once when he was playing for Oakland and he he, you know, he was really, it was fun to talk to him, but he just looking at him, he looked like an NFL running back Joe. He was built that way. He was. Built a little different than than baseball, you know, than than you thought he was. Strong. He was fast and I, you know, I was looking up his. He gained over 1000 yards as a as a running back in high school. Came out of that Oakland hotbed.
Joe Noga 23:34 Oh.
Paul Hoynes 23:36 Of you know baseball players, Frank Thomas. I mean, Frank, Frank Robinson, Jimmy Rollins, Dave Stewart, all those guys that came out of the Bay Area, you know, he was one of them. He was maybe the best.
Joe Noga 23:50 And they they named the field after him there at the Coliseum. So just shows you how much love there was for him in Oakland in the Bay Area. And now there’s a there. Now the now the Bay Area doesn’t have a team or Ricky Henderson, and it’s just an all around, you know, sad, sad situation. All right, hoynsie, that’s going to wrap up. Today’s edition of the Cleveland Baseball Talk Podcast. We will be off until next Monday. We’ll come back at you with a another edition of the podcast. And we’ll unless there’s another trade or a big breaking news at some point over the holidays, we jump in with an emergency pod. But plan for us to to be with you next week to recap every move and anything that’s going on in the majors and and you know where some of these free agents are landing. Hoynes will check in with you then.
Paul Hoynes 24:48 And Joe, Happy Holidays to all our listeners and you too, buddy.
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