CLEVELAND, Ohio — The baseball world erupted recently when trade rumors began swirling around Paul Skenes, the Pittsburgh Pirates’ generational pitching talent and 2023’s first overall draft pick. For most fanbases, such speculation might seem premature or even absurd – Skenes has barely begun his MLB career. But for Guardians fans, there’s a painful familiarity to this narrative.
This premature trade talk serves as an unwelcome reminder of Francisco Lindor’s final years in Cleveland, when conversations about his inevitable departure overshadowed his on-field brilliance.
“I felt bad. You know, I felt sorry,” Paul Hoynes shared on the Cleveland Baseball Talk Podcast when discussing the Skenes situation. “Pittsburgh’s a great sports town. The Pirates have a long history, one of the original teams in the big leagues. And for them to have a generational talent like Paul Skenes and the rumors are already flying about him getting traded because they won’t be able to keep him.”
For Cleveland fans, the parallels are unmistakable and deeply troubling. Joe Noga didn’t hesitate to make the connection: “When you heard that, you know, the talk about should the Pirates trade Paul Skenes? Did that spark any memories of when Francisco Lindor was here in Cleveland? And, you know, as soon as he reached the arbitration phase… that’s what all the conversation was about. Can they sign him to an extension? Is he going to cost too much? Will they trade him eventually?”
The answer to those questions, as Cleveland fans painfully recall, was yes. Despite multiple extension attempts, Lindor ultimately departed for the New York Mets and a $300 million contract that Cleveland’s ownership simply couldn’t – or wouldn’t – match.
“He was the face of the franchise. He was the best shortstop that we’d seen. A combination of Robbie Alomar offensively and Omar Vizquel defensively,” Hoynes reminisced. “And they were forced to trade him because they couldn’t afford him.”
This cyclical pattern of developing superstars only to trade them away before free agency has created a pervasive cynicism among Cleveland fans. The organization is viewed as a “feeder team” for wealthier franchises, a farm system for the Yankees and Dodgers of the baseball world.
What makes this particularly distressing is how it affects fans’ ability to fully embrace rising stars. There’s always that nagging voice asking: how long until this one leaves too?
This brings us to Travis Bazzana, Cleveland’s own recent first overall pick currently working his way through the minor league system. For many fans, the excitement of his potential is already tempered by the fear of eventual heartbreak.
“Fans could fall in love with a guy like Travis Bazzana,” Noga pointed out. “And then how soon before we start talking about when the Guardians aren’t going to be able to afford Travis Bazzana?”
It’s a crushing cycle that speaks to baseball’s persistent economic inequality. While MLB constantly seeks a competitive balance, the reality remains starkly different.
“It’s a terrible reflection on the organization and it’s a gut punch to the fans,” Hoynes said of the Skenes situation. “And it’s also just a terrible reflection on MLB’s ‘level playing field.’ And I use that in quote marks that everyone says exists in the big leagues. Well, it doesn’t. We’ve known that in Cleveland, we’ve known that in Pittsburgh, and every small market team goes through this.”
The frustration was palpable when Noga and Hoynes visited Pittsburgh earlier this season for a Guardians-Pirates series. “I was walking across the Roberto Clemente Bridge, and the fans were lined up across the bridge to get his bobblehead,” Hoynes recalled. “And I kept walking by guys selling T-shirts and souvenirs, and one of the T-shirts had ‘Sell the Team.’ It was directed at Bob Nutting, the Pirates owner.”
That sentiment – “Sell the Team” – encapsulates the helplessness fans feel when financial realities dictate baseball decisions. It’s a chant that could just as easily echo through Progressive Field as PNC Park.
Want to hear more about how small-market teams navigate these challenging financial realities and what it means for rising stars like Paul Skenes and Travis Bazzana? Tune into the latest Cleveland Baseball Talk podcast where Joe Noga and Paul Hoynes dive deep into this fascinating and frustrating aspect of baseball economics!
Note: Artificial intelligence was used to help generate this story from the Cleveland Baseball Talk Podcast by cleveland.com. Visitors to cleveland.com have asked for more text stories based on website podcast discussions.
Podcast transcript
Joe Noga 0:04Welcome back to the Cleveland Baseball Talk podcast. I’m Joe Noga, joined by Paul Hoynes. Hoynes. The Guardians still sort of, you know, feeling the vibes from that big comeback win yesterday against the Dodgers salvaged a.A win in that series, sort of taking some good momentum into an off day today before they welcome in the the Angels over the weekend. But you know, we’re looking at a season high 15 hits in that game against the the Dodgers, the final game of the series.They faced, you know, Clayton Kershaw to start the game. Veteran guy, a guy who’s, you know, always seems nowadays to be coming back off an injury of some sort, not necessarily the the same guy he was, you know, a few years ago. And you know, stuff is maybe not there, still a great.Great pitcher, still a Hall of Fame caliber pitcher. They they were able to to to knock him around a little bit and the really the top three or four spots in the batting order really got the job done in that game. It may not have been until later on that they started producing a lot of runs, but.Just looking back at that, that final game in the series and the way they hit the ball has to be something that Stephen Vogt and the coaching staff can build on going into the Angels series.
Paul Hoynes 1:31No doubt about it. Just I I was watching MLB Network this morning and one of the announcers said the Guardians were touched by an Angel and you know, I thought that was a pretty good line being that Angel Martinez hit the tie breaking three run homer.To give him the seven for a lead and eventually the seven four win. But Joe, you look at the top of that line up and obviously it’s not the way it’s been all season because Steven Kwan left the game with a.A swollen right wrist and was replaced by Nolan Jones. But the top four guys in that lineup were a combined 11 for 19 with one homer and set and they drove in all seven of Cleveland’s runs. And I guess that’s the kind of production you’re looking for, Joe, if you can’t win a game.When when your top four guys have 11 hits, something’s wrong.
Joe Noga 2:31Yeah, and you know, really the bottom of the lineup had been struggling, you know, earlier in the series, you know, guys like Gabriel Arias and there was John Kenzie Noel in right field and Austin Hedges obviously had his issues in in in the game with the bases loaded.So you know the bottom of the lineup you kind of don’t expect too much out of but when like you said 11 hits from the the top four guys in the order that that you really should be sitting comfortably at least at some point in the game. But it was it was tied up. Angel Martinez comes to the plate.In the 8th against Alex Vesia and and he just you know had a real special moment there for him to be able to to put the team in front and and really win the game with his effort there. I had doubled earlier in the game so just great to see that but you know you and I were talking about how.This team really does seem to be able to take advantage of bullpen arms and you know, scores in in bunches late in games. I think the stat was was something. This was, you know, their five run 8th inning was the 4th time this season that the Guardians.Have have scored five or more runs in A-frame and and it’s the first time since they scored eight runs in the 6th inning back on May 7th at Washington. This is a team that can score bunches late, score in bunches late and a you know they keep doing it. But Stephen Vogt will sit up there.In his pregame availability and tell us that every day he sits down and writes out a lineup trying to beat that day’s starter from the other team. So there’s it’s almost like a cognitive disconnect here. You know you’re trying to beat that day’s starting pitcher, but you end up constructing a lineup.Up that that has a lot of success against a bullpen late in the game.
Paul Hoynes 4:35Yeah, Joe, it’s. I don’t know if it’s just one of those baseball things, a quirky thing, but I think, you know, there’s something that more that goes into it. You know, the Guardians may fall behind, you know, through the first five innings, but they their bullpen is experienced and deep and talented and it can.Usually, it’s not going to let the game get out of hand. It’s going to keep the score where it is. It’s going to give the offense a chance to come back against the opposing bullpen. And we’ve seen that time and time again, Joe, and you know.Yesterday was a prime example of that when they score the five runs in the 8th inning and come back against the best team in baseball or, you know, one of the best teams in baseball with the Dodgers who spent millions on their bullpen. So, you know, just.You know, it’s a trend and hopefully it’s a trend that keeps going, but it really keeps Guardians fans on the edge of their seat. Joe, I was looking at the breakdown of the inning by inning scores and where the Guardians really shine is in the extra innings. They they’re 4 and O in extra.Innings and they’ve outscored the opponent 10 to 3 when it gets in the extras.
Joe Noga 5:51Yeah.Yeah that’s that that’s great and it’s it makes it a lot easier on the on the reporters covering the games knowing once they go to extra innings you know they can sort of tailor their stories that way because you know they’re they’re they’re going to find success one way or another I.I got to bring up. I think it was you mentioned how much money the the Dodgers spent on their bullpen. Was it Tanner Scott that they spent 70 million something? They gave him like a $70 million contract and he went out there and blew the save. I just.Or or you know blew the opportunity to hold the the the score where it was. I I I got to wonder you know if there’s a cost benefit analysis between the the Guardians bullpen and the the Dodgers bullpen the the the Guardians are are getting way more for their money out of out of the guys out there in the the the.OK.
Paul Hoynes 6:49Oh, there’s no doubt about that, Joe. All all, you know, Cade Smith, Andrew Walters, Tim Herron, Emmanuel Classe even, and Matt Festa. They all came out of the pen yesterday. All those guys, you know, they’re working.Relative to Major League salaries, they’re they’re they’re working, you know, on the cheap side for sure. I mean, you know, Cade Smith and Walters are Heron, you know, they’re they’re a second, you know those those guys are rookies or second year guys.Second or third year guys. So they’re not making a whole lot of money, but they certainly are pitching very, very well.
Joe Noga 7:32Yeah.And Class A probably has one of the the most team friendly high high value contracts of in the majors in terms of you know what what you’ve gotten over the length of that contract so far. So yeah, it’s a case of the the big money team, you know, sort of.Doesn’t always win in that situation. They can’t overwhelm you with your your $700 million contracts. It’s good to see again coming out of that game. But we don’t live in the past. We we move forward and after today’s off day they they bring in the Angels.The should I say the the the streaky Angels? They they’d won eight in a row and were, you know, sort of making waves there in what, eight straight wins? And then now they’ve lost five to the to the Marlins.And the Yankees, I think last night won nothing. They lost a game in Anaheim, their getaway game as they’re they’re heading this way for the series opener on Friday. Just, you know what? What can we expect with the the Angels coming to town and the pitching matchups?I know Slade Sacconi, who was supposed to start Wednesday’s game, was pushed back and he’s not now going to pitch on Saturday.
Paul Hoynes 8:57Yeah, Joe, it looks like, you know, the Angels who took two out of three from the Guardians on that first on Cleveland’s first opening season trip at the Big A. They’re coming to town. They’ve, like you said, they’ve lost five straight. They’ll be, you know.The Guardians have they have Luis Ortiz, Slade, Sacconi and Gavin Williams starting in over the weekend series and the Angels are countering with Jose Soriano Jack.Kawanowitz and I mean Kyle Hendricks and Jack Kawanowitz in on their part. Soriano Cleveland saw him in that opening trip. They beat him. Kahanowitz beat them on the same in the same series to end that. I think it was a nine game trip.To open the season, so should be a good match up. Kyle Hendricks, Guardians fans are more than familiar with him from his days with the Cubs and his performance in the 2016 World Series.
Joe Noga 10:08Yeah, and like you said, Soriano always, always pitches them tough. They’ve they’ve had a a tough time with him, even though they beat him in that game at the start of the season.
Joe Noga 11:14 Mike Trout hasn’t played since April 30th, so that really sort of changes their lineup as well. But they’ve got guys who’ve stepped up and and are are hitting home runs. Taylor Ward, Logan Ohopi. Ohopi really, really handed it to the Guardians.In that early season series, Ohapi’s got 14 home runs. Taylor Ward, you know, one of the one of the best stories in the league right now as as he’s 15 home runs, 37 RBI’s, but he’s only hitting 218. So that’s sort of a, you know, something that he he can be pitched to. He can, you know he he’s going to be.I.Guy who strikes out quite a bit. He’s got 64 strikeouts on the season, so that’s where the the the punch comes in their lineup. And then Zach Netto, a guy who who really is becoming one of the best shortstops in in all of baseball that nobody’s talking about really. He’s hitting 281.He got an 855 OPS, nine home runs, 20 RBI’s. So those are the guys who you know can do damage if if you’re not aware of them when they show up here at Progressive Field.
Paul Hoynes 12:28Yeah, Joe, I mean, that offense really put it to Cleveland in in, you know, that first road trip. They outscored him 22 to 14. They out homered him nine to four. Tanner Bobby, who was not pitching in this series, gave a four home runs, four of those home runs in one game.So they have, they have some power, they’re dangerous and they’ve lost five straight, Joe. So I don’t know if they’re, you know, they’re the worm is about to turn here or you know, Cleveland can keep them on the skids until they get out of town.
Joe Noga 13:02Well, and that was the The funny thing is that during that eight-game winning streak before they they lost five in a row, they they’d swept the Dodgers as part of that that streak. So you know the the the potential is there for them to, you know, produce. It’s just a matter of you know them actually going.Other.Doing that. So yeah, definitely got to got to watch this this series coming up, the Angel series. This is the series that the Guardians really need to win, I think in order to keep their momentum going and especially because they’re going to be heading to to New York to face the Yankees after that. So.It’s definitely one that they’re they’re going to need to sort of grab that momentum by the end of Sunday’s game. All right, let’s let’s take a look now. I, you know, just flipping through some recent stories here on on mlb.com and and just other places where we sort of get our information about the league.And noticed that there’s a there was a controversy or there was at least a conversation about Paul Skeens in in Pittsburgh. And you know we saw Paul Skeens when we were there, you know last month and just the the excitement and the.You know, just the the love that that Pittsburgh has for that guy that was sort of generated about the ballpark. We were there on his bobblehead day when he pitched against the Guardians and the Guardians actually beat him. But Paul Skenes, you know, the first overall pick in the in the draft a few years ago and.He’s there now. He’s got all the, you know, all the the trappings that come with being a number one overall pick and you know, sort of the face of a a franchise. And you know, he’s got the the Instagram model girlfriend Libby Dunn and he’s he’s got all this, everything going for him and now the conversation.Surrounding him is when are the Pittsburgh Pirates going to trade him? Because that’s what the talk is when it’s a small market team like Pittsburgh and and this is a franchise that’s not necessarily, you know, made the greatest decisions in the past when it comes to things like this.You know, they’ve traded away Garrett Cole. They’ve done, they’ve done things financially that maybe throw up red flags and all that. But Paul, I I I wonder just when you heard that you know the the talk about, you know, should the the Pirates trade Paul Skeens?Did that spark any memories of when Francisco Lindor was here in Cleveland and you know, as soon as he reached the the arbitration phase of his, you know, before free agency?You know that that’s what all the conversation was about surrounding Francisco Lindor was, can they sign him to an extension? Is he going to cost too much? Will they, will they trade him eventually? And then it got to, well, yeah, yes, they’re definitely going to trade him. Who are they going to trade him to? So you know what? Just what what was your reaction when you you saw that being the conversation around Pulski?
Paul Hoynes 16:14Yeah, Joe, I felt bad. You know, I felt sorry. I felt, you know, Pittsburgh’s a great sports town. The Pirates have a long, long history. One of the original teams in the big leagues and for them to have a, you know, kind of a a generational talent like Paul Skene.
Joe Noga 16:16OK.
Paul Hoynes 16:34What’s he in his second year? And they’re already talking the the the rumors are already flying about him getting traded because they won’t be able to keep him. You know, number one, it’s a terrible reflection on on the organization and it’s, you know, it’s a gut punch to the fans and it’s also.
Joe Noga 16:38Mhm.
Paul Hoynes 16:53You know, just a terrible reflection on ML B’s, you know, just the the the level playing field. And I, you know, use that in quote marks that everyone says exists in in the big leagues. Well, it doesn’t. We’ve we’ve known that in Cleveland, we’ve known that in Pittsburgh and.Every small market team goes through this. You hated to see, you know when when the Guardians slash Indians traded Lindor, he was the face of the franchise. He was, you know, the best shortstop that we’d seen. You know, a combination of of Robbie Alamar offensively and and Omar Vasquel.Defensively, and they were forced to trade that trade him because they couldn’t afford him. And they tried. They they made several runs at him to sign an extension. But Francisco had a number in mind. His agent had a number in mind.They traded him to the Mets and he got that number, which was, you know, $300 million. And you know, is he a $300 million player right now? I I’m not sure, but he got the money and Cleveland fortunately was able to, you know.Keep churning out shortstops, keep churning out middle infielders. They have the farm system to handle, you know, a deal like that. But still, you know, it’s a blow to the organization, a blow to the fans. And fans never get over that, Joe. I mean, they keep that, you know, they’re like elephants. They never forget. And when.
Joe Noga 18:21Right.
Paul Hoynes 18:24One, you know, if this, if this season goes into dumper, you know the Lindor will be coming up. You know that’ll be one of the stones that somebody throws in ownership.
Joe Noga 18:36Well, especially seeing him lead the Mets to the NLCS last year and, you know, have a an MVP caliber season, even though he didn’t win the award because Shoya Tani was so good. You know, any other season, Francisco Lindo probably would have won the NL MVP last year. And you’re right, fans don’t forget and fans don’t forget the.The feeling of being a feeder team for a small for for the bigger market teams. You know the the the Mets have Steve Cohen, the the the owner who will you know open his pocketbook and and just and just pay for any problem that exists and and throw money at it and as a.Opposed to That’s not the situation that you have here in Cleveland with ownership in terms of willingness to spend on free agency. So I I think you’re right, it tears open old wounds for a fan base like Cleveland to see.Somebody like Paul Skeens who was drafted by the the Pirates, they they earned the right to draft that number one pick by suffering through a terrible season and getting the number one pick and and now you’re already you’re only two years into his tenure with the team and you’re already talking about.How they won’t be able to afford him, how you know he’s he’s what teams could afford him and what teams would he fit best with and who would be able to offer the best package of of prospects to the Pirates to to try and and and pry him away. And that leads me to start thinking about how.You know, for the fans who fall in love with a guy like Paul Skeens and who were so excited about him after he’s the number one overall pick. Well, you know, the Guardians have a number one overall pick in their farm system right now in Travis Pozzana. And are are we in a phase sort of right now of a waiting time before?Before Bezana, you know, and I know he’s on the injured list right now, but when he comes back and he’s able to start climbing up towards getting ready to play in the big leagues and you know, the fans could, you know, fall in love with a guy like Travis Bezana. And then how soon before we start talking about when the Guardians aren’t going to be able to afford Travis Bezana?
Paul Hoynes 20:51Yeah, Joe, you know you. You don’t want to put the cart before the horse. You know Bazana.
Joe Noga 20:56But, but, but this is the way that our minds work. This is the way that our brains work here in Cleveland is, well, we can’t get too attached to this, you know, high prospect, this, this kid that we we think has this potential and we could fall in love with them and and then all of a sudden we can’t afford him. So yeah, I mean.You’re right. I’m sorry I cut you off there, Paul.
Paul Hoynes 21:19Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. But you know, I mean this guy, you know, Skeens and Bazana, I think are two different guys. I mean, but Skeens, what he was, he pitched about 10 games in the minors and he was in the in the big leagues. I don’t think Bazana is that kind of talent or is that they they don’t need that. The guardians don’t need a guy like.At right now. But you know, eventually he’s going to be in the big leagues. Is he going to have the impact that schemes has had on on the Pirates? I don’t know. I haven’t seen. I haven’t seen enough of them, Joe.
Joe Noga 21:52Yeah, I I would agree. But there’s there’s the potential there for him if he develops into the player that, you know, they thought enough of to take with the number one overall pick, then yeah, you’re you’re going to have fans, you know, falling in love with him. So you’re right, it made he’s not going to, you know, jump on the scene right away like Skeens did and dominate the way Skeens has.I mean starting in the the All-Star game as a rookie I think was pretty pretty significant but but Bazana has the the opportunity here to to sort of you know become a a superstar in the game. I mean he was in in college he was the the one of the best players in.
Paul Hoynes 22:15Yeah.
Joe Noga 22:29In in the country and at at Oregon State. So I I don’t think that there’s I I I think there’s a path here for Bazana to to sort of you know come up and and and dear himself to the to the fan base and then once that happens it’s how long do they have him sort of in the fold before they have to talk about.About trading them. And I think there’s parallels here, maybe not really clear ones, but parallels between Skeens and Bazana and their situations. And this is maybe right now we’re in the early stages of sort of getting that feeling of, Oh well, you know the.The Guardians aren’t going to be able to keep this kid. I might as well start thinking about where where to trade him.
Paul Hoynes 23:16Yeah, Joe. I mean, you know, that’s certainly, you know, a possibility. I I I just went getting back to skeins. You know, we were both there for that series, the Cleveland series when they were in Pittsburgh and we I was walking across the the Roberto Clemente Bridge and the fans were lined up across the bridge to get his Bobblehead and I kept.Walking by guys, you know, selling T-shirts and and souvenirs and one of the T-shirts had sell the team. It was directed at Bob Nutting, the the Pirates owner. And you know, that’s just what we’re talking about. You know you trade schemes.Why are you trading schemes? Because the guy won’t. The owner can’t afford them. So what’s what’s the alternative? Sell the team. That’s what the fans want.
Joe Noga 24:03Yeah, they they made. They started that chant several times during that series. We heard it. So all very interesting. All right, that’s going to wrap up today’s edition of the Cleveland Baseball Talk podcast. We’ll check in, I guess tomorrow ahead of the series opener against the.
Paul Hoynes 24:06Yeah.
Joe Noga 24:22Uh, the Angels and uh, we’ll look forward to talking to them.
Paul Hoynes 24:25Good deal, Joe.
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